I was actually surprised at the amount of sex there was in a geisha's life -- I had always thought of them as hostesses in the literal sense than in the metaphorical sense.

Heh. I loved your version of her internal monolog. Yeah, I was surprised that she was shocked at how Pumpkin reacted in the end. There was a certain amount of "Hi, I'm the center of the world" going on there. And as much as the men didn't seem to know what was going on in the geisha's life, she and others don't really seem to care about most men as anything more than a meal ticket. Does she care that she's basically ripped apart Nobu's life? I dunno -- but I don't think he deserved it.

I don't know how much of that, however, is because of the circumstances in which they lived. My (granted, quite sketchy) impression of the circumstances under which women lived in pre-war Japan is that it was quite difficult for them to be much more than passive reactors rather than active participants. It frustrated me throughout the book -- why doesn't she just SAY something? But I guess she couldn't.

Or could she? What do you think?

Sarah | July 23, 2003 9:08 PM

I already mentioned in the post below that I had avoided it simply because it was such a popular book. Of all the voracious readers in our group, I’m probably the most least up-to-date simply because I never buy anything unless its in paperback. I can’t hold onto heavy hardcovers while riding the subway.

Sayuri may have been clever, but I didn’t really notice it during my reading. It seemed to me, as Gwen stated above, that she spent her entire life following the lead of others. The only thing she did to affect her life was seducing the Minister in order to ensure that Nobu would change his mind about becoming her danna, but it backfired when the Chairman walked in. And she still ended up with him!

In flipping through the book, I came across the section in which Sayuri talks about some of the shortcuts she uses to practice the shamisen, to learn a song, or improve her dancing. I suppose some of that could make her clever, but I see it more as a sign of intelligence. If she were truly clever, she would have been much better at manipulating patrons rather than always being embarrassed whenever something off-color was said to her. Mameha seemed to be the character who really understood what being a geisha was about, and Sayuri never did much more than follow her around Gion.

marydell | July 23, 2003 9:12 PM

Sarah, there you go talking up Nobu again. I found him to be utterly vile.

marydell | July 23, 2003 9:13 PM

Awww, c'mon. Don't be so hard on poor old Nobu. He may be an ass and told-you-so self righteous, with zero social graces, but he is intelligent, loyal, and honest to a fault, and really came through for her when Gion was shut down, possibly saving her life and certainly enabling her to maintain herself better physically so that she could return to the good life after the war. He's the only one who had the balls (or true interest in her) to tell Sayuri to stop being such a namby-pamby. He may have had a wrongheaded way of showing it, but he loved that girl, and she done him wrong.

Gwen | July 23, 2003 9:42 PM

I'm with Gwen on this one. I don't see Nobu's behavior as vile or reprehensible... Don't forget, he's a badly scarred amputee who's probably used to the sort of cruel giggles-behind-hands that Hatsumomo indulged in. He's rough around the edges, but I'm firmly of the opinion that Sayuri didn't deserve him. "Oh, I'm so confused and infatuated with another man that I'll shatter the heart (in the most demeaning way possible) of the one guy I know who's reliably stood by and had faith in me."

I don't think she deserved to "win" the Chairman at the end, either, but perhaps Golden means for it to be part of that whole destiny thing.

As for Sayuri's alleged cleverness, I agree with Sarah that she does seem to have a way with a phrase (some of her quirky metaphors are what "endear" her to Tanaka in the first few chapters), but she does seem to have a bit of a passivity problem. I also don't buy that she wasn't socially able to express herself, because Pumpkin certainly gets away with a lot of mouthing off when things start up again after the war.

But then perhaps we're seeing typical eastern understatement... Cleverness is always attributed by others, seldom by Chiyo/Sayuri herself, while Mameha is held up and shown to be the prototypical geisha. But then I may also be giving Golden too much leeway.

Blah. Need more caffeine; then I'll be more coherent.

Rich | July 24, 2003 10:45 AM

I'll give you that Nobu did take care of Sayuri during the war, but only because he wanted something from her eventually. Other than that, he talked to her like she was the dirt under his shoes, so I see it as him doing her as much wrong as she did to him. Seriously, who would want to be stuck having to take his verbal abuse and then have to have sex with him?

marydell | July 24, 2003 11:30 AM

So Nobu called in an expensive favor, years in the making and uncertain in execution, for a bit of skirt? Ummm, no. Nobu's whole fixation was on Sayuri as a person, and how she stuck out from the rest of the geishas. An influential man in 1940s-50s Japan could get laid any time of day or night. Most of his derogatory comments toward Sayuri were along the lines of "I thought you had more potential" or "I suppose I overestimated you." Nobu wanted nothing but the best for her; if you recall, Nobu's interest didn't even exist until Sayuri purposefully showed him extra attention during the Sumo match (to get Hatsumomo off her back).

It's also worth remembering that offering to become a geisha's danna was as close (in financial terms, especially) to proposing marriage as a guy could get.

Rich | July 24, 2003 2:14 PM

Nobu might have been an asshole, but he was the only honest person in the book. Even The Chairman supressed everything -- "Oh, I loved you from the start, but when I saw that Nobu loved you, I kept my feelings to myself." Of course, if The Chairman had bothred to ask Sayuri what she wanted, he could have saved everyoen a lot fo heartache. But I guess that wouldn't lead to a very long book, now would it.

Actually, Nobu reminded me a New Yorker. Go figure.

Sarah | July 24, 2003 3:50 PM

Nobu’s derogatory comments to Sayuri actually were more along the lines of, "A woman who acts like a fool is a fool, wouldn’t you say?" (315).

I do agree that his interest in her is more than just getting laid. However, having to put up with his frequently surly demeanor and insults whenever he felt slighted probably had a lot to do with her not wanting him to be her danna. She would have been able to look beyond his physical impairments if he really were such a wonderful person. In addition, she doesn’t find out until late in the book that she’d never be able to have the Chairman if Nobu became her danna. Sayuri doesn’t want him long before that fact comes to light.

Besides, if Nobu is in love with her as well as being a cunning businessman, why isn’t he ever able to get her? He bids on her mizuage, but drops out early. He loses out on becoming her danna to the General. In the end, he gives her up when the Chairman tells him about her tryst with the Minister. Considering his failure at getting what he wants in his personal life, I have serious doubts about him having any impact on the success of Iwamura Electric. He may love her, but it doesn’t seem like he loves her enough.

As you can tell, I’m not all that enthralled with the plot. It’s the look into the life of a geisha that redeems this book for me because I had nothing but a vague picture of it before reading Memoirs. It sort of reminds me of Titanic. I enjoyed it, but more for the accuracy of the events leading to its sinking than the stupid Jack and Rose love story.

marydell | July 24, 2003 3:58 PM

That eastern concept of honor, to which Nobu seems to be a real subscriber, is a real pain. Nobu doesn't win the bidding for her mizuage because he sees the whole affair as distasteful and by extension dishonorable; he doesn't want her for her mizuage. As for his failing to win out over the General for Sayuri's first danna-hood, that was as much a result of Mameha's and Mother's prewar maneuvering as any failure of Nobu's.

And as for whether he was believable as a businessman, well, I know any number of real business successes whose family and personal lives are impressive messes. I found Nobu a believable and even admirable guy.

BTW, his worst abuse was reserved for people who didn't meet his code or, worse, should have and failed to. Inflexible? Narrow-minded? Perhaps. Malicious? Reprehensible? I don't think so.

Rich | July 24, 2003 6:27 PM

And never the twain shall meet.

marydell | July 24, 2003 7:59 PM

Actually, Nobu dropping out of the running for Sayuri's mizuage made me like him more, as that whole thing seriously grossed me out. I appreciated the fact that Nobu wasn't in it just to deflower virgins, as the other two slimeballs where.

But Mary, I agree that the plot was secondary to the setting and the detail. The plot was pretty much Harlequin Romance.

Sarah | July 25, 2003 10:53 AM

How did we get through this discussion without talking about the role of women in Japanese society?

marydell | July 26, 2003 4:12 PM

By me keeping my piehole shut, I'll wager. ;-)

Rich | July 26, 2003 5:57 PM

re: role of women in Japanese society. I thought of bringing this up, but the book didn't really tell much about the life of Japanese women in general, just of geisha. The only "normal" woman I remember being given any sort of thought in the book, albeit very briefly, within a paragraph or so, is the wife of the man who hosts a party Sayuri attends (and at the end, the wife gives Sayuri an envelope containing payment for her husband's mistress, who's off spending the night with him). While they're mentioned in passing, the idea that I get is that the wives of the men patronizing the geisha are seen as put-up-and-shut-up, but, again, this isn't brought up enough to give me a clear idea of how this sits with them. This may be because Sayuri doesn't inhabit their world and doesn't have any clearer an impression of it than I do.

I'm still up for a geisha v. whore discussion ;)

Gwen | July 26, 2003 6:24 PM

Aw, Rich. That's a subject I'd expect a woman to bring up (like I did), not you. If I were to say something about women being marginalized, I'd fully expect you to come along and defend men. But I won't.

I assume that marriages were arranged as a business or political deal. As a result, I'd also have to assume that most wives saw geisha as serving a purpose. The husbands went off and were entertained or did business deals in teahouses while the wife was left alone to run the household and raise the children, which was probably her primary function in the marriage. If my marriage was arranged and I didn't love my husband, I probably wouldn't mind him dipping his eel into another cave as long as it kept him out of my way.

It seems like the book does try to make a distinction between geisha and whores. However, according to my definition, I'd say that anyone who has sex with another person for money or favors is a whore. At the same time, though, geisha seem to be a bit more than that. They're hostesses most of the time and only give it up to a few men over the course of their careers. It's kind of like distinguishing between a really expensive whore and a hooker on the corner.

marydell | July 26, 2003 9:26 PM

A few comments on the geisha vs. prostitute question: Historically, geisha and prostitutes were completely different classes in Japan. The highest-ranking prostitutes still in existence when the first geisha emerged were "oiran", who had evolved from a previous class of very accomplished courtesans called "tayuu". These women were often quite brilliant artists and poets, and these talents were often considered much more important than sexual prowess. While tayuu were usually very beautiful, they were valued as much for their brains as their bodies. Lower-ranking prostitutes also existed--there were several ranks, arranged according to artistic accomplishment and beauty. (There is a lot of information on this in "Yoshiwara: The Nightless City", which has recently been reprinted.)

The meaning of the word "geiko" (a more recent and specific term for "geisha") is "woman of the arts". When geisha districts were first established, there were very strict rules to keep the geisha from interfering with the customers of the oiran. They had to wear less vibrant colours, and smaller and fewer hair ornaments. The pictures one sees of Japanese women wearing many large ornaments in their hair and very bright many-layered kimono are oiran or tayuu, not geisha. Geisha were not intended to take money for sex (although it was known to happen). But a very successful geisha would not really need to do that. She would earn a great deal of money just for entertaining.

The more permanent relationships, of the type Sayuri would have had with the General or the Chairman, were not so much sex-for-money arrangements as informal marriages--the "husband" would support the "wife" financially (which was usual for relationships in the heyday of the geisha, anyway) during their relationship. If one considers marrying for money prostitution, then certainly some of these relationships would be considered client/prostitute deals.

In both Japanese and Western culture, there exist ordinary prostitutes, who are offering mostly sex, and not much in the way of other entertainment. The life of an average prostitute is really nothing like the life of a geisha (or even an oiran).

There are some women who work in the sex trade today, and can earn a lot of money (on the order of several thousand dollars per day's entertainment), but one doesn't necessarily go to school and learn to dance, sing, or play instruments first. One might use those skills, but it's really much more of a "Right, you give me $5,000, and I'll spend the weekend with you...wink, wink" sort of thing. There's also no official registry of women in the profession, no protection, and very little legal recourse in the case of disaster. It is a completely, completely different lifestyle.

Oops. Got a bit carried away, there.

Bad Rat | November 24, 2003 6:25 PM