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January 22, 2006

House of Leaves discussion

Hi, y'all. I hope everyone has finished House of Leaves -- I know it was a big one. It took me fifteen days, and I took copious notes.

There's obviously quite a bit to talk about regarding this book, so while I plan to pose some questions below, don't feel like you have to stick to answering them. I'm sure there's tons and tons of stuff I haven't thought of, so please feel free to make random comments and ask questions. That said, here are some questions I jotted down while reading. I'll list page numbers where possible.

1. We all know the book is multilayered in terms of narrators -- there's the movie, and Zampano's book about it, and Johnny's edition of Z's book, and Ed (as I like to think of the editors that occasionally comment), and then the finished product that we each held in our hands while reading. It's not always easy to tell what layer a given part of the book corresponds to. For example, the jacket flap (in my copy) says that the book was originally released on the Internet. Is that "true" in in our (your and my) layer of reality, or is it just another layer of fiction? What about at the bottom of the copyright page where different editions are described -- full-color, two-color, etc.? Are these "real" in our reality? What about the editorial reviews on the first page of the book?

2. The book has some supremely boring sections, most notably the pages-long treatise on the mythological and scientific aspects of the echo. What's the point of these? Did Zampano/Johnny/Danielewski really find this interesting, or was he trying to bore us, or was he making a statement about academic writing, or...?

3. What made those claw marks on Zampano's floor anyway? (xvii)

4. How unreliable is Johnny? We know he lies several times - he admits, for example, that he just made up an entire section about living with a pediatrician and drinking carrot juice, etc. His footnotes are often false as well -- as early as page xx, he's wrong about the existence of the book The Works of Hubert Howe Bancroft (it's real). On page 16, he admits he added a word to Zampano's narrative so it would better parallel his (Johnny's) life -- or so it would give him the opportunity to tell a story, in which he admits from the beginning he told a giant lie.

5. How much should we trust Ed, the ultimate level of narration? Is he just Danielewski, or someone else?

6. Did anyone find an instance in which "house" is not in blue? (I did not.)

7. What do we really know about Zampano? All that even Johnny knows about him is that he wrote The Navidson Record and that he took a walk every evening with some stray cats hanging around. We don't even know if he was actually blind, nor how he died. We do have some evidence that volunteers read to him a lot, so he at least convinced them that he was blind, and some of them say he asked them to help fabricate lists of citations for The Navidson Record.

8. What did you think of the crazy labyrinthine text mirroring the action in the house? I have to say that I loved it, and that it might be more than it seems to be. For example, I certainly didn't bother to read all of the long, long lists of authors or house-facets, because they seemed like dead ends....and then I realized that there were lots of unexplored hallways and rooms in the actual house, too, because Navidson and the rest of the bunch didn't have time to check out every one. Then I realized that "dead end" itself is a spatial metaphor that I was using to describe literature that describes space both in words and on paper. Then I got lost in a tangle of postmodernism....and "lost" is a spatial reference too...don't worry, I'm stopping here, but you get the point.

9. What other books have you read that are like this one? For me, the answer is simple: none. I'm not generally a reader of experimental literature, and I haven't even read any of David Foster Wallace's fiction, although I love his essays.

10. So like I said earlier, there are four or five layers of narration. They all remain pretty traditionally separate throughout the whole novel, until near the end when the book Navidson is frantically reading with his last few matches is called House of Leaves. All of a sudden, we have to question what the hell is going on here. Did Johnny make up that book title just to freak us out? Did Zampano name both Navidson's reading material and Z's own treatise that just to confuse us? Why is the book that we all just read called House of Leaves anyway? One interesting note is that Navidson's book is 736 pages long, whereas my edition of House of Leaves is only 709, including the index. Oh, and so Navidson has to burn earlier pages to read later ones -- is that related to how Johnny found Zampano's manuscript burnt and ashy in parts?

Also, here are some links of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_leaves is Wikipedia's rundown of the book. It tackles a lot of the important issues and shows some hidden codes, but I think it's important to remember that it was written (presumably) by just another House of Leaves reader like ourselves and should not be taken as authoritative.

http://www.houseofleaves.com/forums/ The official site. It's interesting that it contains no actual from-above information -- it's just for readers to toss around ideas.

http://thatskannada.indiainfo.com/chowchow/picfortheday/images/sudan1.jpg The picture of Delial that Navidson took -- in "real" life, of course, it was another photographer. He won the Pulitzer Prize, took a lot of flak for not helping Delial, and then killed himself.



comments

Just rereading my own post about how the copy of House of Leaves that Navidson burned and read was 736 pages, while my own copy is 709 pages, has led me to realize: that means House of Leaves is bigger on the inside (of the story) than the outside....

First let me just say that this is now my favorite book ever. If Borges, Lovecraft, and Mieville got together and collaborated on a book, I imagine it might look something like House of Leaves. Let me also say that I could spend a year researching the details of this book and write multiple theses on it. The article in Wikipedia is a must-read, in my opinion.

My next comments assume you've read the book. If not, please do not read this.

In regards to your question about the narrative, do you agree that the whole book was actually written by Johnny's mother? There is some evidence for it, but I'm not 100% sure what the point of that is.

Also, I can't tell if this is an author error or deliberate, but did you notice that Zampano and Johnny both make the same grammatical error, saying "would of" instead of "would have?" This could indicate either Danielewski is smart, but not THAT smart, or that both narratives were written by a third party (e.g. Johnny's mum), OR it could simply indicate that Johnny had to fill in some of Zampano's narrative in his own voice. I haven't figured it out yet.

Re: the labyrinthine aspect - this is what most strikes me as Borgesian. I love the concept of the labyrinth within the house, and I see it (and the hallway itself) as a metaphor for the dark secret places that exist inside each individual, and that anyone attempting to explore that place would get lost in. (Did you notice in the appendix on chapter titles that one of the proposed titles was "Minotaur?" Makes you wonder what would happen if you actually managed to solve the labyrinth...)

Which brings me to my own question: Danielewski supposedly wrote this novel as an exploration of his father's death. I wonder how much of the Navidsons is really Danielewski's own family?

Maya, I'm so glad you liked it! I love it as well. It's not exactly an easy read, but I think it's worth it.

I read online that many people think Pelafina (Johnny's mother) wrote the entire narrative. I would need to know a lot more about the theory before I could decide how likely it was. Does the theory say, then, that Johnny's whole discovery of the book in the apartment was something he just made up and actually he found it in his mother's attic or something?

Actually, I didn't notice Zampano saying "would of." I did see Johnny doing it a lot. Did Z do it frequently or just on occasion?

Ooh, it would be very interesting to read a Danielewski autobiography....but of course we wouldn't be able to believe a word of it!

1. I agree on the Pelafina thing. I didn't gather enough evidence to convince myself.

2. I only consciously noticed Zampano saying "would of" once.

3. A Danielewski autobio - even if it was totally fictional, that's all the rage these days (see Frey, James).

4. I forgot e.e. cummings. He would have been in on the collaboration (with Lovecraft, Borges, and Mieville).

Although I need to go to bed, I wanted to jump in very quickly. I found this book to be a heavy read and worth a lot of exploration (just like the house).

2. I didn't think the boring sections were all that boring, mostly because they added to the academic feel of the book. The footnotes clearly make it look like a textbook, but they really lead you nowhere and everywhere at the same time. Sort of like wandering through the house. Is it possible Danielewski is also making a statement about academics with all the footnotes? I often feel like my education has taken me some places but not everywhere I'd like to go.

6. As I read House of Leaves, I specifically looked for instances of "house" that weren't blue but couldn't find any. I wonder, why blue? Is it to make the word stand out from the rest of the text much like how the house stands out from normal houses?

9. I've read a handful of experimental novels and found House of Leaves to be the only one worth the effort. For example, our May 2004 selection If on a winter's night a traveler is also experimental, and I thought that thing was so annoying I didn't finish it.

i would have loved to join in on this discussion.
unfortunately, my crappy library didn't carry it...not to mention i owe $30+ in late fees....

:^(

I agree with you, Marydell about the footnotes and the academic discourse. I also think a lot of the technical meanderings can be read as if they describe methods of communication between people. Like the echo, for instance.

This has been a bit of a race (only got the book last Tuesday) but I’m not on the random quotes bit of the appendix, so I think I’m there!

Multilayeredness: I love the fact that the book constantly makes you question the reality of what you are reading – is the house real, is the film real, is the manuscript real, is Zampano real is Johnny real, is the House of Leaves that Navidson reads in the house real, is the House of Leaves the band lends Johnny real And ultimately it’s all made up, but I found myself wondering if there was another book that I hadn’t heard of called House of Leaves. I notice that my edition of the book (UK) is different to yours. For a start, ‘house’ is in lighter type, not blue. I wondered if you all had hardbacks? Are any of the pictures in the back of your in colour?

What made the claw marks on Zampano’s floor? No idea. But when Holloway dies I’m sure the darkness is described as clawing over his body. And there are the strange experiences Johnny has of something coming up behind him. It all adds to the idea of the beast – which seems to exist in and out of the labyrinth. Do you reckon this could be related to the minotaur?

I loved the ‘crazy labyrinthine text’. Flicking through the book beforehand I thought it would be a bit annoying and silly, but I found it really slowed down the reading process, made me linger on every word and put the whole action into slow motion, which is how I imagine how it might feel, lost in a labyrinth for days without enough sleep, food, water, warmth, light, where you don’t know what’s going to happen and some mad idiot’s shooting at you.

I loved the macho way Navidson and his fellow explorers go forth into the abyss while Karen sits at home being a bit girly. The men go armed – with cameras or guns, whichever is their personal (quite phallic) weaponry. When Karen needs to she finds the strength to go in, but she goes in unarmed and this doesn’t hinder her. I think she is the only person who goes in and comes out complete. Three of the men die and two (including Navy) are very badly injured. There’s a bit of a feminist reading of the text for you. And I suppose you could say the labyrinth is womblike if you were so inclined.

That’ll do for now.

Danny, I appreciate your feminist reading of the book, particularly because so many other aspects of Karen seem traditional in a way that some feminists would decry -- she was a model and now she's a housewife, etc.-- although, of course, by the middle of the book she's making her own movie, and she also saves her husband's life at the very end. It's arguably due to her that there was a Navidson Record at all.

To answer your questions about my copy of the book: it's the American paperback version. "House" is in blue, and the pictures in the back are black and white.

I just took a quick look at the forums for House of Leaves, and I'm sorry I bothered. It seems like the regulars over there are all experts on the book and fight with each other on a regular basis over people who ask questions without using the search function. As a result, I gained no enlightenment and am already thinking about reading it again in order to understand it better.

Danny, I think I have the same edition as Daisy. "House" is blue and the only 4-color picture is the collage just inside the front cover; everything else is b&w.

I also loved how the book itself is a labyrinth and followed all of the footnotes and footnotes' notes in order. At first, I didn't get it but caught on quickly and found that the flipping pages added to my enjoyment of the book. It helped me feel like I was there, searching just like the explorers. When I teach, I tell my students that reading books should create pictures in your mind. This book certainly did that for me.

Thank you to the author/publishers for putting each narrator's text in a different font. Since it was so multilayered, the type changes helped me keep better track of who was saying what. I especially liked Johnny's first line, "This is not for you." It reminded me of Pearl Jam's Not for You, a song about youth freeing themselves from their naivety. In reading House of Leaves, we also need to free ourselves from what we think a novel should be.

10. My guess about the title is that is has a few meanings (like everything else in the book). Although there are hidden things in the book, the title could be literal.

A house made of leaves (the plant) is tenuous and can easily be destroyed, and I liken the house in the book to be a kind of a shared belief by its occupants. It exists in their reality but comes crashing down on them when they realize they've taken on more than they can handle.

You can also think of the leaves as the part added to a table to make it bigger. If you add an infinite number of leaves to a table in an infinite number of combinations and shapes, you can create the path of a labyrinth.

Leaves could have something to do leaving a place. The Navidsons didn't belong there and the house might not have wanted them there either. Then again, leave also means having permission to do something. Maybe the house allowed them inside on purpose.

But the way I like to think of it is as a house made of leaves of paper. The book is the house. It doesn't exist and never did, not even for the characters. For me, it's a figment of Johnny's imagination and only exists inside the stack of paper I held as I read it.

I hadn't thought of the book itself as a labyrinth, but of course it is! Thanks for that one.

On Daisy's point about the book being bigger on the outside than in - the pagination for the prologue/intro is in Roman numerals so if you look at the number of the last page you are not including these. I think there are 23 of these, plus 709 pages of the bulk of the book, that makes 732 - but I bet there are some copyright pages etc. or even the front and back cover that can make the number up to 736. But I read somewhere on the internet that the pages in the paperback version are slightly larger than the cover, so they peep out of the book, making it bigger on the inside than the outside - so you are right Daisy! Sorry about the maths.

Marydell – I agree with everything you say about the title. I see it as meaning ‘book’, but also bringing in the fragility of a house actually made of leaves and the way leaves, like the house, are constantly changing. I like the table leaves idea and here’s another one – the house people are always leaving – the fast-changing ownership, there’s a statistic in the book somewhere, I can’t remember what it is.

I found Johnny a fascinating character. In so many ways he came across as a drugged up loser from a disadvantaged background who didn’t know where he was coming from or going to. But his absorption in the manuscript, despite being his downfall, was in a way his saving grace. The tenacity and attention to detail he showed to putting all the pieces together gave some idea of what he could do if he moved on with his life and maybe came to terms with his past. Also, my preconception that he was a loser and an idiot gradually dissolved as I realised this guy is really quite educated, he’s smart and he knows his stuff – clearly he gets some of this from his mother, but she’s not around enough for long enough for her to have too much of an effect, so somehow he absorbed an education to become the well-travelled and well-read character we meet.

BTW – I’ve not read anything by Borges, but from what you’ve all said I really should have, so he’s gone on my list.

Thanks for introducing me to this vast and amazing book – you guys and this site are fab.

I missed Daisy's comment on the book being bigger on the inside. It helps solidify my theory that the book is the house since the house was also inexplicably bigger on the inside. The missing 27 pages also might be part of it. The Navy couldn't figure out why his measurements were off, so maybe we'll never figure out why the page count is off.

Danny, I forgot about the part where Zampano mentions that the house had been through a lot of owners. Thanks for reminding me since it adds another meaning to the title.

I also liked Johnny quite a bit. Despite being an unreliable narrator, he made the story for me. If you took him out of the picture, I don't think I would have managed to finish it. The Navidsons are the ones documenting, the explorers are the ones exploring, Zampano is the reporter, and Ed is the voice of reason. Johnny, though, is most like us. He's an outsider getting the story secondhand and shares his impressions with us in a more conversational tone than the rest of the writing and acts as our guide. His asides and personal interjections add to the labyrinth because he takes us to a lot of dead ends but eventually leads us back to the house.

Johnny was my least favorite part, I think. I like some things about him, like that he was the most mysterious even though he talked the most. But I was just riveted by the Navidsons and their journey, and was always slightly irritated when Johnny's voice broke in to interrupt that story.

I liked many aspects of this book. I felt very lost and scared when Navidson was.
I took house of leaves to mean folios of paper. A house of cards, maybe it falls if you scrutinize it too much.
I wished Johnny would go away.
Also interesting how the author's sister is Poe.

Why all the Johnny hate? I actually found him to be one of the more interesting characters, mainly because he had personality.

Marydell, I didn't exactly hate him. Like I said, I didn't like him interrupting what I considered to be the most interesting story. I guess I like the idea of him more than the butting-in reality...

Okay, I can buy seeing Johnny as a distraction from the house. But when you think about how well-constructed Danielewski's plot is, Johnny's interruptions are crucial to the labyrinthine structure of the book. Most of his comments seem like they have little to do with the main story, but he leads us down most dead ends through his footnotes. The path through the house constantly changes, and Johnny changes our path through the pages of the book.

I also haven't worked this idea out thoroughly yet, but I think Johnny embeds secret messages in his footnotes by using his mother's secret code. On p. 609 of my edition, Johnny's mother tells him to put a checkmark in the corner of his letter so she knows he received it. A checkmark appears in the corner of p. 97, which makes me think that chapter is significant in some way. I've also tried finding other secret messages using her first letter of every word code on p. 619, but I haven't found any yet.

As I mentioned, I found Johnny to be the most interesting character so I've spent most of my time trying to figure him out. I really need to read the book again.

 

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