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June 19, 2007

A Question of Oprah

A few posts ago, I briefly wondered why there's such a stigma attached to Oprah books. At the book review panel, an academic in the audience stated that she gets some of her fiction recommendations from "god forbid" Oprah. The qualifier struck me as odd. She was clearly embarrassed by her admission and must have added the "god forbid" as a means of staving off not being taken seriously.

Years ago, when I lived in Chicago, I attended an Oprah taping after she had lost a ton of weight on a liquid diet. She moved around the audience with a microphone back then, and I was awestruck by how large her head and hair were compared to her tiny, tiny body. Seriously, the ratio was something along the lines of a Charms Blow Pop, and I was so preoccupied with wondering how she managed to carry her cranium that I barely remember what the show was about. Soap stars maybe.

Oprah's Book Club doesn't register much on my radar, probably because I don't fall into the demographic. In looking over the master list of selections, I have to admit that I haven't read many of them. As a result, I don't feel qualified to judge her selections as worthy of either praise or scorn. Of the books I have read, though, I enjoyed every one:

My favorite above is Middlesex, but I absolutely loved The Virgin Suicides and wish Eugenides would write another book. I hope he doesn't make us wait another 10 years.

Via the comments, Imani of The Books of My Numberless Dreams writes that her ideas about literature are at the opposite end of the spectrum from Oprah's:

"To Winfrey, though, an author's literary style, erudition or linguistic experimentation is of secondary importance: She's primarily concerned with the social aspects of literature, how literature can help our culture. If the work doesn't have a useful moral foundation that has the potential to make the world a more civil and pleasant place, it's not going to be one of her selections." - from the Los Angeles Times via Black Garterbelt

Matt of A Variety of Words adds:

I'll also throw out why for me there is a stigma attached to reading an Oprah book. I feel like she is trying to be our savior, telling us what to think and what is good because we can't possibly decide those things ourself. I can make my own decisions on what is good thank you very much.

Hmm...it seems as though Oprah's desire to better society is off-putting. I can't help making a connection to this month's discussion selection, Happiness, a comedy delineating the ruinous effects of the first self-help book that actually works. From the author's introduction:

This is a book about the end of the world, and as such, it involves diet cookbooks, self-help gurus, sewer-crawling convicts, overworked editors, the economic collapse of the United States of America and the widespread tilling of alfalfa fields. And I think one of the characters loses a finger at some point, too. This is the story of apocalypse: Apocalypse Nice. It tells of a devastating plague of human happiness, an epidemic of warm fuzzy hugs, and a mysterious trailer on the edge of a desert...

So I have to wonder, at what point does making the world a better place go from sincere altruism to mass consumption of tainted Kool-Aid followed by the apocalypse?



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You've got my comment, errors and all. Now I'm a bit embarrassed, should have been "reading an Oprah" book. I do know grammar, I promise!

Of her recommendations I've read:
-The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen
-The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner
-The Road by Cormac McCarthy
Of those I would only recommend The Road.

Happiness sounds like a fascinating book, I will have to take a closer look. One of these days I will participate in your book discussion.

Questioning effort? Is Oprah attempting a coup? Please!

I agree with Matt. Oprah has declared herself Supreme Doyene of our culture, and thus our lives. What to eat, wear, want, think, etc. (And you were surprised to find Oprah had a big head? As if we should expect anything else!) Why is there a stigma attached to her book choices? I think it is because there is the tacit implication that the reader is simply a sheep, following the herd of Sheperdress Oprah. We don't have think about our choices or worry ourselves silly about making decisions about the worth or quality or theme of a book becuase Oprah Answers All. And I believe that is probably why Frazen got so upset when his book was chosen as an Oprah Read--fear that no one would take his book seriously, read it critically, and (he hopes) value it appropriately.

While I never imagined I'd run to Oprah's defense over anything not Gayle King-related (that woman has a fiiiiine behind!), I'm here to say that anyone dissing the big O's book club while writing how wonderful it is that kids are reading Harry Potter(http://www.bookblog.net/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=1&search=harry+potter), has really got to check themself. At least Oprah by and large (that's not meant as a weight joke, mind you) picks interesting reads, where the kid wizard's books are all sub-Catcher In The Rye teen angst mixed with Scooby-Doo plotting.

Hi Merydell,
I joked on my blog that I'm considering printing a t-shirt that reads "I read it pre-Oprah".

I enjoyed your post. I have to question though if a lot of criticisms aren't purely conjecture. I don't watch so I don't know for sure, but does she actually say she wants to pick books to change the world? That she is trying to be our saviour? Supreme Doyene of our culture? I understand the recommendations, but I thought they were just that. She's not ramming them down our throats, is she? Even if there is a sticker! If people follow her like sheep, is Oprah to blame or the sheep? I don't know. If she is trying to help the world, even just a small portion, even for fame, isn't that still better than someone like Paris Hilton? I just don't have enough hatred to go around, I guess.

I used to work in a couple of bookstores and I can still remember the people who'd march into the store and demand....ummm...that book. What was it called? Who knows but it was on TV. Who wrote it? Hmmmm. Dunno. What was it about? Not sure. Think it had a red cover, though. You know the one I mean?

Anyhoo, we had to keep current with which books were on Oprah's list so as to prevent additional conversations like the one described above. I can appreciate the concern that some people blindly follow Oprah's recommendations. Still, I also think that there's enough backlash against her allegedly "telling us what to think and what is good" that I've no worries that her book club is going to take over the publishing world completely.

Seriously, does anyone really believe that Oprah's book club is preventing the writing and/or discovery of quality literature?

I won't be so bold as to say without doubt Yes, Oprah's book club is preventing the writing and reading of quality literature. However, I can easily imagine the situation happening. Suppose I want to be a writer. I want my books to sell. Oprah's seal of approval (literally a sticker!) sells books. Hence, I will write the book Oprah wants to read and not what I want to write, not the truth I want to make known or communicate to others. (If you doubt this could happen, just think back to high school and college when students knew they could get an easy A by simply spitting back what the teacher said.) Yes, Oprah makes some choices of quality, but she not always right; furthermore, the scythe of quality has a wide (though not infinite) swath. By creating a fanatic craze only a few books, OPrah precludes the others from getting the publicity and readership they deserve. Finally, if a reader simply relies on Oprah's choices rather than thinking about the type of books he/she wopuld like to read, find interesting, deem "quality," notable books are left on the shelf (if they are lucky enough to be published at all), collecting dust--much the unused brains of readers today!

Hello Bookblog!

I am back from hiatus (which I'll explain about some time later).

This is definitely an interesting discussion:

Although I have only watched a few shows, I do respect Oprah on a personal level and so on--no need to get into her personal story.

I am with John Mutford and Zonker on this one. I don't think Oprah's book club is affecting people's ability to select a book on their own--at least, not the entire country. It's all relative.

Personally, I don't know a single person, that I am aware of, that follows every book on her list, nor one for that matter. Yeah, there's a stigma attached to reading a book on her list, but I think that's because those who are aware of the stigma just may have something against Oprah. Or, are turned off by the idea of reading books by a person that was not educated in literature or does not have some sort of valid weight for a literature-appreciating reader, myself included (I don't want to be caught on the train reading a book with an Oprah sticker on it! Ha!) But on the other hand, I don't see anything wrong in selecting books with a social message. That very well reflects Oprah's own opinions, views, and goals. Whether or not Oprah seems sincere or not, is beyond me, although I don't think she is insincere--she's just really famous and filthy rich! Ha, ha.

As for the fans of Oprah's book club not being able to select a book on their own, at least they are reading! I wouldn't be surprised if half of those people can actually choose a book on their own, but they just don't bother with the time-consuming activity of finding a good book to read. It's not that they can't--it's just easier.

As for Oprah's book club affecting/preventing the writing and discovering quality literature, I'm not quite sure why it would. Mary Higgins Clark and the rest of the thriller/romance/pop literature writers have not slowed down. Oprah's book sure hasn't stopped Dave Eggers (heheh)--and I think that he's supposed to be literary...

Ultimately, people are going to read what they want to read. Let's get real, the Oprah readers want to read those books, otherwise they just wouldn't. And, evidence of others out there still wanting to read quality literature (writing style, themes, so on) is right here on this web page.

Eh...my humble opinion.

Looking over the master list, I've read:

-Middlesex
-As I Lay Dying (I think, or am confusing it with another Faulkner piece)
-One Hundred Years of Solitude (the holy culprit behind my absence)
-The Bluest Eye


yeh, short list, although I did not read these because of Oprah's book club.

By the way, everyone should read One Hundred Years of Solitude at least once in their life...because...I said so. Heheh

No, really, everyone should!

I feel that at least part of the anti-Oprah phenomenon is driven by people's desire to be unique and special lil' snowflakes...just like everyone else. After all, if they read the same books that Oprah picks, they're clearly not being trendy, right? This whole thing reminds of the smug Mac-hadeen and their holier-than-thou rants. I've no doubt that a Mac is a wonderful thing but so many seem to believe that their heroic anti-Microsoft stance equates to bravely fighting The Man. Puhhhlllleeeeeeze. Anti-Oprah != bold/trendy statement.

Oprah picks some good ones but she picks some stinkers, too. The lady doesn't have unstoppable powers of persuasion. And let's just get over ourselves, folks. Sneering down our noses at Oprah's impertinence at having a popular book club ignores the fact that she's encouraging a lot of people to read on a regular basis. Even if you disagree with her selections, encouraging people to read is a good thing.

(Please don't think that I'm trying to be rude or point fingers at anyone here. I know that I can be just as guilty of the anti-Oprah/Microsoft/corporate, fightin'-The-Man, ooooo-me-so-hip attitude as anyone else. Still, just because I live in a glass house doesn't mean I don't enjoy throwing stones sometimes, too. ;)

I agree with elizabeth saying how duplicity stinks. I think Oprah can agree with it too however. If Paul Muldoon goes up there and Oprah says "What kind of pencil do you use" we stand on the tip literature has I think.

What I find interesting about Oprah's Book Club is that there are so many authors who put all their hopes of success on it. Even those who get picked are not guaranteed success. I currently have two books available and some that are in work. One is called Church Website Design(ISBN:1419659715). Oprah's readers will not be reading that one. The other is called Searching for Mom (ISBN:1419670395). It is about a girl with no mother who decides to find one. I think there are plenty of people who would find it interesting to read, but I doubt it will be picked by Oprah. The book that follows Searching for Mom has a decidedly Christian slant to it and Oprah does not strike me as the type of person who would be interested.

Not all authors on Oprah's Book Club put all of their hopes of succes on it, like Timothy has stated. Half the authors have no say over it simply because they are either dead or the books have long been considered classics, like Faulkner, Tolstoy, or García Márquez.

In cases like these, it doesn't make those novels a novel success (hehe). Those novels were a huge success on their own years ago.

Something that boggles me is why people would expect Oprah to select a book that they deem of higher quality every time. Why would she? Someone posted that really good quote, about Oprah picking books that have a specific social message. That's it.

If authors are so worried about not getting picked for Oprah's club, then that says something about the author and that author's misunderstanding of what it means to be a successful writer. And if authors are trashing her club from whatever point of view, then, why even bother saying, "I'm sure my book won't get picked." Just don't.

(I'm sure a question make should be included in that last sentence somewhere. I just don't remember where.)


ps--Zonker, I agree on the whole Mac thing. It irks me to see people who have no business preferring a Mac because they aren't graphic designers/web designers, music makers, not film-makers! It's true, they do it because it's "trendy." Eessh, who wants to own a PC!

People don't even realize that Macs are so impractical and they've just now starting designing the operating system into something that the average person can actually understand and get around!

Ah, I keep adding to this...why can't I just write one big entry?


Anyway, I read in a magazine that Oprah will actually interview Cormac McCarthy...apparently, this will be his second interview in his entire career!

So...should I not watch it because it's Oprah and his book is on the list? Haha!

Without getting too deep in what is my first 'long time reader, first time poster' post on this blog, I wonder if the world of book clubs and book awards and reveiews is beginning to cause writers to 'censor' themselves for commercial feasibility?
That is to say, would authors now be writing manuscripts with Oprah's book club in mind?
Don't get me wrong, I love all discussions about books and if Oprah's book club is getting people turning off their TVs, reading books and then engaging in discussion about them... fantastic!
However, books don't always have a social message, or a clean cut delivery of morals. Sometimes they just make us think or reflect a certain reality, and I wouldn't want that to be lost.

Oh my! I left the blog alone for a few days and look at all the comments. Perhaps I should do so more often...

Matt, I didn't even notice the typo when I cut and pasted your comment. It's fixed now, so there's no need to be embarrassed.

Brian, I'm not questioning effort and I don't think Oprah is attempting a coup. It's great that she tries to help people, but there is a point when doing good starts to turn some people off.

Elizabeth, I think you've identified the point I mentioned in my response to Brian above. Helping people sometimes goes along with a dose of "religion," and with Oprah it means being folded into the cult.

Ju-Osh, I don't think I dissed Oprah's Book Club. In the post above, I wrote: "In looking over the master list of selections, I have to admit that I haven't read many of them. As a result, I don't feel qualified to judge her selections as worthy of either praise or scorn."

John, I don't know the answers to any of your wonderings about Oprah because I don't watch the show either. Although I get the impression that her followers operate in a cultish way, I don't think she leaves her flock to proselytize new members. She may preach endlessly about living the Oprah way, but she preaches to the already converted.

Zonker, other than moving books in such large numbers that her selections merit their own ISBNs, I doubt Oprah's Book Club has any effect on literature of any quality. Great books (and bad ones) were written before Oprah and they'll continue to be written long after Oprah.

Clearly, some people like going along with the crowd and others like fighting through the crowd to walk in the opposite direction. For each person who walks against the crowd, though, there are hundreds of others doing the same thing. To borrow a line from my own personal god:

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile. —Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk

Me, I walk in both directions depending on where my destination happens to be that day.

Elizabeth, I'm sure some writers have seated themselves down and attempted writing an Oprah book. However, I'd posit that such a writer was a bad one from the outset. Although each of Oprah's book choices causes a craze, I don't think she intentionally tries to preclude others from publicity. Should she have to stop her club because other books sit on the shelf?

Ana, welcome back from hiatus!

You, Matt, and I all admitted to the Oprah books we've read. It's interesting how we've each picked up a very small percentage of her list and how there isn't one all three of us have read. It's evidence, I think, of Oprah not having much sway over us.

You're absolutely right about the OBC faithful being able to choose books for themselves. I haven't looked at the discussion boards, but I guarantee there are many, many threads with them recommending non-Oprah books to each other. Her demographic is made up of mostly women who live busy lives (work, marriage, children, homes) and going with an Oprah book is easy.

The Cormac McCarthy interview already aired, so you missed the boat. However, I think you can watch it online...if you join Oprah's Book Club. ;)

Tim, "authors who put all their hopes of success on" Oprah's Book Club are, more than likely, bad writers. About 170,000 books get published each year in the US alone. The odds of getting Oprah's attention are along the lines of winning a million dollars in the lottery. But, hey, dare to dream.

Tara, there are already plenty of writers who specifically tailor their work for commercial success. Have you read Stephen King's Misery (or watched the movie)? The main character writes historical romance for money but aspires to publish a master opus. I'm sure many mass market paperback authors think along the same lines.

I'm starting to tire of book awards. It seems like one is handed out each week, and a lot of people don't realize that publishers pay entry fees to enter most of them. Rather than being about the best of the best, many are simply the best of the paid entrants.

I was reading the latest posts of this fascinating discussion and debating whether or not to add yet another comment. And suddenly it struck me--was the original post just a French Tickler to get us all hot and heavy for the upcoming discussion on Happiness?!

I have to admit, I don't like Oprah's Book Club mostly because I feel that the women (yes, I am generalizing since most of her viewers tend to be women)who read and enjoy the books only do so because Oprah says so. However, an earlier poster made a very valid point: is this the fault of Oprah or the sheep? In a way, I think it's a bit of both. Oprah, because, even though she doesn't do this overtly, she positions herself as a quasi-omniscient figure with the Midas touch and the sheep because they don't have the guts to dislike something because a person they idolize recommended it. Of course, there may very well be many readers who, upon reading one or two of the recommendations, have put the book down and thought, "Well, that was a waste of a week."
Maybe I'm just a snob. Maybe reading one of the selections post-Oprah robs a classic of the cachet it once had. It is no longer exclusive, but it has been cheapened because it has been exposed to a wider audience.
By the by, when I was in Illinois, I attended a taping of a show when I was in high school (I was part of a "panel audience" about teens and discipline) and my friend and I had the exact same thought you did. Dang, her head is disproportionate to the rest of her body, and this was after she had lost weight, but not as much weight as recently!

Hmmm...

I've got a question:

why should a classic not be exposed to a wider audience? why should it be exclusive?

The action of publishing a book and making it available through a publisher and a bookstore exposes to anyone who might encounter it. There are ways to go about making a book exclusive. Like, if the only thing available is the manuscript and the author has it circulate among a certain crowd. It probably won't make it out into the public. I wonder if that would actually work. Regardless, my question is the same. Why should a book or a classic be exclusive?

The reason I ask is because I've never heard this point of view before in regards to a book. I'm very curious about it now.

I'm a printmaker and what the art world has said about printmaking through out history is that printmaking is the art of the masses. The print can be reproduced through editions without much difficulty and it is easily available for the public, yet each print is unique and worth just as much the next print. So the idea of a classic being exclusive reminds me of snobby Art for the upper class.

I'm really interested in this notion. Perhaps there's a different reasoning behind it when it comes to a book?

Ana, the "exclusivity argument" is just par for the course these days. It works for food, drink (especially beer and wine), books, music, movies, vacation spots. It works for pretty much anything, in fact. I first became really aware of the phenomenon when an acquaintance decided he no longer liked U2. Why did he change his mind after being a diehard U2 fan for years? Because the band was playing large stadiums and their songs were being played on the radio. As he put it, "they sold out."

I really see this as part of a larger cultural problem. Everyone wants to see the little guy triumph. But God forbid the little guy actually succeed because if he does, everyone wants to see him cast down. Obscure > popular. Struggling > success. Actually, the new mindset seems to be that obscurity is popularity and struggling is success.

On the flip side, no one wants to actually get their hands dirty. It's ever so much nicer to, say, write a book and have other members of the intelligentsia appreciate it. If the hoi polloi start digging it, though, you've written clearly produced trash rather than art. Everyone wants to be the renegade artist feted in the concert halls. No one wants to maintain the concert halls. After all, anyone can be a janitor, right? I mean it's so common.

"But on the other hand, I don't see anything wrong in selecting books with a social message. That very well reflects Oprah's own opinions, views, and goals."

The problem, as I identified it, was not fiction being chosen with a social message, but fiction being chosen *solely* for its social or moral message. I don't subscribe to the view of literature as cipher for proselytising or improvement. It cheapens the work and the reading experience. Writers are writers, not gurus or elevated beings with gifted insight into the human soul. And if Oprah was really interested in moral and social issues taking the "pleasant" and "civilised" route is hardly the way to critically develop one's point of view. So I can only assume the writer means that Oprah only wants reads that are self-affirming.

Fine, every one must follow their bliss, but don't expect me to respect it because you make people read or whatever.

Ana,
I do realize how stupid it sounds, which is probably why I have such issues with why I feel the way I do.
As an English teacher, I should be glad that more people are being exposed to great (and not so great) literature, but some strange part of me gets annoyed that the exposure is coming from a daytime talk show host.

imani: "Writers are writers, not gurus or elevated beings with gifted insight into the human soul."

Have you ever tried telling that to a writer? Or any other type of artist, for that matter?

Here is the basis of my problem with Oprah interpreting books and their messages for her sheep. (Aren't her book discussions really just echo chambers? Her ideas being bounced around and reiterated in different pitches.) The best way I can explain it is to recall the scene from Reality Bites. Ben Stiller's charater, trying to impress Wynona Rider, says, "I know why the caged bird sings." He thinks it is because the bird is happy. He could be more off base: the bird must sing or it will die.

Zonker, should I have to and would it mean anything if I did? (I vote no. :p) I have little tolerance for the affected artist who is less concerned about craft and more enamoured with the brilliance of his/her razor sharp mind. That's probably why, more often than not, I prefer to deal with the book and only as much with the author's life as is strictly necessary. I have little tolerance for a definition of art that wraps it up in deadening social messages and cultural improvement. Art is first and foremost an aesthetic experience (which does not exclude the intellectual).

Whoops! I caught a typo that changes the entire meaning of what I intended to write. The last line of my previous post should have read that the Ben Stiller character could NOT have been more off base.

Enygma, I think I understand where you are coming from. You mentioned that you're an English teacher, and as an English teacher, you're annoyed that someone without any background in literature is suggesting to the country (the part of it that watches, anyway) what to read, especially when not all of the books are masterpieces and perhaps for the wrong reasons. That's how most people in a specific field feel when those who are not experts are teaching others about something they have no clue about or are amateurs. It beats the purpose of being an expert or someone who has experience in that. I can totally sympathize with you on that level.

I kinda disagree with the idea that writers are writers and not elevated beings. For the most part, I believe that artists are artists and the more successful artists are successful (by successful I don't mean money, but importance) because they offer a different perspective about life that may or not be obvious. That does not mean that all artists see themselves as gurus, though there are plenty. I'd say that at least half of all artists, including writers, musicians, are intent on developing their skills and craft. There are plenty of books out there that lend a critical eye to the reader, that enlighten the reader: Farenheit 451, A Brave New World, 1984, etc. These writers set out to make a statement with their books, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they disregard the craft and are just interested in getting their thoughts out there.

On another note, aren't ALL books open to interpretation? Not only books, but art and music as well. I've never watched Oprah discuss a book on tv nor read any reviews or I don't know how it works, but I can only imagine that her interpretaion is basically what she looks for in life. She dedicates her life to social programs (besides having upper middle-class suburban women on her show and talking about their daily lives). So, although it may be bothersome and annoying that she recommends books that may suck and she recommends the good ones for the wrong reasons, it's still valid.

Lastly, that Art is first and foremost an aesthetic experience is not the only definition of art, for that is what the Western world has taught society that Art is over the ages. It is an ethnocentric concept. To say that that is the sole definition would completely disregard the art of other civilizations, such as the Egyptians, Aztecs, Incas, and so forth, where art was used as a tool for society.

Well, the things is, I've never said that anything was the "sole" definition, that it couldn't be used as a "tool" (although in this discussion I'm focusing on literature, specifically fiction, which I don't see as a tool). I didn't write that one couldn't make a statement with literature, or that the aesthetic precludes the intellectual. I never wrote that writers who incorporate social themes do not pay attention to craft. I said that Oprah pays no attention to that. So I'll be happy to continue if you actually address my points. :)

I rushed that comment so I'll address two more of Ana's points. I see how having great skill and imagination and going beyond the obvious makes one a good, even excellent writer. I don't seek, however, to put artists on a pedestal because history has shown us just how flawed humans are. For me this is what makes great works of art even more inspiring. I never lose sight of the fact that, essentially, writers create illusions. Certainly these works can and often are transcendent for various reasons but the best artists, IMO, offer questions not answers.

Again you misinterpret my comment -- we are addressing Oprah's take on literature? That's what I'm doing -- and refer to how artists see themselves. I wasn't discussing that at all but, again, Oprah's approach to literature that essentially puts authors in the position of guru or shrink. I've made no reference to fiction writers that consider themselves gurus. (I don't know of any except maybe Paul Coelho (sp?).)

Your point about works being open to all interpretations has left me entirely confused. Did I restrict works to a single interpretation? That's precisely what Oprah does by only looking for works with a "useful moral foundation" that have a "pleasant" and civilising effect. Although I do have my preferences, which I'm sure you know of by now, I do not only seek and consider worthy books that fit my aesthetic point of view. Or my moral framework. "First and foremost" does not mean "one and only" to the best of my knowledge. My opinion in its most basic form reflects the idea that if one acknowledges fiction as an art form then the aspects that make it art should not be ignored. (I don't see that as moral improvement. I'm pretty sure the Incas didn't either but I could be wrong.) If one makes it only, perhaps even primarily, about social message then one is more or less reducing it to propaganda.

I don't see how Oprah's social work explains her restrictive take on literature. Social/Moral issues of primary interest? Fine. Simplifying such a stance until the result is fiction as a moral handbook and civilising influence (and only that because if it ain't "useful" it ain't worthy)? Daft.

So no, Oprah's general principles about fiction are not valid (for me). This has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of her selections, or her audience, or the fact that she's a talk show host. I'm positive that she and her audience are fully capable of engaging with a text beyond, "What moral lesson did the selection teach you today?"


I dont see anything wrong with Oprah books - as long as you're one of those people where that's not ALL you read

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